While I’ll very likely be skipping SW:TOR for a few reasons (It’s SW, it’s ‘casual’, it’s a mega-themepark), the news about henchmen being added to allow you to solo everything makes that choice even easier. Hopefully the idea of designing an all-solo MMO will begin and die with this game, or at least pull all the solo-heroes back out of the MMO genre and allow them to play with themselves in SW:TOR.
One final note, don’t bring up Guild Wars as a “see, henchmen work!” example. There is a reason GW has no monthly fee, and it’s not because ArenaNet is doing you a favor. There is also a reason UO likely makes EA more money today than GW makes for NCSoft, even though by most accounts GW is a very successful game. A successful game can make a company a lot of money, a successful MMO can keep one going for years (SOE).
Hardcore Casual 
You know, I think SW:TOR is actually going to be really popular. Its everything I hate in an MMO, which, judging from that fact that I play games that are considered to be on the fringes of the genre, should indicate that it’ll be everything other people LOVE in an MMO.
SWTOR does have a lot going for it really
1) Star Wars IP is popular
2) Bioware has a large following that will play just because its bioware (like Blizzard was with WoW)
3) Its going to be very solo friendly
4) Seems to want to give players a Star Wars movie experience rather than a star wars universe experience (SWG failed, and it wasn’t just the NGE)
5) Its competition (Star Trek Online), is looking pretty terrible.
So, hopefully, like you say, all the players that prefer to solo will consolidate themselves in SWTOR.
See, hirelings work! lolololo
I don’t have anything serious to add.
“Its competition (Star Trek Online), is looking pretty terrible.”
YOUR FACE LOOKS PRETTY TERRIBLE RAGERAGERAGERAGE
This is a prime example of while i’ll probably never play another tripe A title from a huge company which takes millions upon millions of dollars to create. Their overriding objective, and really the only objective, is to make money. In order to do this, they will make that triple A game as casual/accessible and solo-friendly as humanly possible to rake in as much cash as they can, including cash shops etc. (eventually if not right from the start).
Nothing wrong with that…that’s what massive companies do. I just know that’s not the kind of game i’ll ever enjoy playing. Thankfully the niche titles are looking a little more promising of late which is a wonderful thing and where i’ll be putting any money i feel like investing into the mmorpg genre. Ya, their goal is to make money too. But it is not the overriding factor of every single design decision they make. thank god.
I miss the days of making a great game. Now it’s about making a game that is easy and appeals to every potential mark in the universe.
Yeah, I was initially really excited by SWTOR. Sounded like it was going to be a cool SW sandbox, albeit with less bloodshed than Darkfall. I’m officially “out” now.
By the way, I’m back in DF — I’m playing with Calamitous on NA-1
SW:TOR was NEVER promoted as a sandbox.
How about Everquest? It has henchman. Folks are still subbing…
Definitely agree with all the above about not playing. The I read about SW:TOR, the more depressed I get about it. I’m a huge Star Wars nerd so I was really looking forward SW:TOR initially, but every single bit new news item I see is just one more straw to break the camel’s back. I don’t think it’ll be too long before I decide I won’t even give it a trial.
Definitely agree with you willee. Triple A titles are basically dead for me. Which is quite alright with me. The first MMO that really drew me in was an indie game and then afterwards started playing the more triple A titles. Now I’m back to an indie game in Fallen Earth, and loving the MMO again like I have not in a long time. Sure there’s only one FE server, but it’s so nice to have at least one GM around at all times, easily available for contact and always willing to help. There’s also just a general willingness of the dev team to listen to their player base. They sort of have to because where a triple A game can say “who cares if we lose 10k subs over this” an indie game usually needs to try and keep those 10k people. Stuff like that makes putting up with the occasional bug no big deal and will probably keep me away from the triple A titles for a long time.
Just on the issue of henchmen, and ‘solo-friendly’: Neither of these is inherently bad, especially not in a sandbox envioronment. SW:TOR will be another step down the themepark road, but that is the intent of its design, not a result of any given feature. Personally I would love to see hanchment in a sandbox game, who can take of a variety of tasks, cost money and resources and time to acquire, and who will get ganked, bribed, stolen, ransomed or taken prisoner by other players if I’m not good/careful/backed by a strong guild.
Oh I agree, it’s not as simple as henchmen = terribad game. But when it’s henchmen+themepark+solo-hero+’story-based’, well to me that reads like the makings of something I’d rather skip.
I agree, though to be honest I really do want to see what Bioware can accomplish in the genre. They have had a habit of defining the genres that they work in rather than cloning the most recent successful titles. While I doubt that SW:TOR will break the mold, it is possible that it will be a more interesting game than most of the big titles that have come out recently.
The only two games I actually play right now are Mount and Blade (because it’s like crack) and Darkfall. Both because of the freedom of choice involved.
I’m not planning to try SWTOR, for several reasons. It’s Star Wars, for which I lost the small amount of interest I had over two decades ago, it’s a “story-driven” MMO which, in my opinion, is like having a glovebox-driven car, there are other AAA games coming that interest me a lot more (DCUO, FFXIV), it’s S.F. so Mrs Bhagpuss almost certainly won’t play it, and I already have more MMOs on my desktop than I can possibly find time to play.
The addition of henchmen, however, actually nudges SWTOR one notch nearer to a being a game I might try eventually because, well, I really, really like the gameplay NPCs bring. That was the part of Dragon Age that I liked, running the party, letting the AI do some of the work and stepping in when needed.
It plays to what I like about MMOs in the first place, namely being the Director of my little movie. I’ve never wanted to be the Hero, or the Lead Actor. Director is much more fun.
Anyway, whatever BioWare do won’t warp the market out of all recognition. WoW hasn’t really changed anything much in the MMO gamespace, once you peel away the hysteria, tribalism and hype. Look at the last umpteen AAA MMOs and the indie successes of the last 5 years: they are all entirely comprehensible as developments from where we were pre-WoW. MMOs are still much the same as they were at the start of the century, just with a shinier coat of paint.
lol, meant to say henchmen
This week in “Syncaine blindly bashes theme-park games”, Syncaine examines the oh-so-obviously-awful idea of pet classes and its absolutely devastating effect on games. He provides his usual deep insight and sharp rhetoric to thoroughly dismiss and repudiate his witless opponents. Truly, only Tobold and Keen are worthy matches to his endless intellect and boundless store of sagely wisdom.
No.
The big thing is not that SW will have companions, but that the inclusion of such companions allows the game to be completely played solo. We already know how players react when given the choice between solo and group (even if ultimately the group option would be more fun for then. Remember, players find ways to remove the fun, making it easier for them to do so won’t help here), and we also know that what keeps people around (and paying) in the MMO genre is often more about community than actual gameplay.
The other major mistake you make is calling this a pet class, unless you truly believe the design behind SW is to make EVERYONE play a pet class, and that would be a horrible design decision (not everyone likes having a pet, and forcing one on them won’t be good).
The difference between a pet class and a companion (using existing designs) is that a pet class is balanced around having that pet, while a companion/hireling is an additional boost to any class. A WoW hunter is not balanced compared to the other classes pre-pet, and the pet is a bonus. The hunter is balanced based on the assumption that the pet is always out. So again, unless you are saying BioWare wants EVERYONE to play a pet class, there is a difference here.
Finally, no matter how smart they make the companion AI, they won’t be as powerful as a real player (or god help SW if companions are more powerful than a comparable player), and so if I can accomplish everything with a companion, how difficult will the content be if instead I bring a real player? Want a scaling/reward nightmare, try making a distinction between bringing a real player vs a companion, instead of just using a broad brush like DDO does (which is already horribly flawed for balance).
For your reference:
https://syncaine.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/ddo-hirelings-nicely-done-turbine/
I’d suggest reading the post you link, I don’t think it’s saying what you want it to say.
Which part?
The part where you “came away very impressed”? Or that it “adds to the enjoyment of the overall experience”? Or that “it adds more variety to the game”? Or the “pet-like hotbar”? Or that it “makes what would previously be an uphill battle possible and more deep/entertaining”? Or that it’s “[a] great addition to what has so far been a really enjoyable experience”? Or that your “only concern with hirelings is their cost”?
What do you think it says about hirelings?
Seems you missed the context of the post, let me help you out.
“as a party of four is the ‘recommended’ number of players to complete an instance on the normal setting.”
“In any other game the addition of hirelings would be a nice but overall meh improvement, but in DDO’s group-only environment it just opens up the game”
So are you trying to tell me SW is going to be tuned originally for 4-6 players, and retrofitted with hirelings to fix an issue (forced grouping) with the game? Or are you just overall missing the issue here, which is more to do with solo-everything than companions?
Really? Did I miss the part where you can’t solo in DDO, specifically enabled by hirelings? So what then? Shame on you for duoing in an MMO? What happened to the first ‘M’ in MMO? Or is it acceptable for you to do since you’re a real MMO gamer? No wait. DDO isn’t a real MMO and it’s F2P so it doesn’t count.
Hey, man. It’s okay to to admit that you were inconsistent, or that you apply a double standard to games, or that you changed your mind. Are you really that proud and uncritical of yourself?
You should ask DDO what happened to the first M in it’s design, since that’s one of the reasons we quit after a month or so. Good point, and nice dodge of the response above. Lets keep comparing a forced-group game that’s 100% instance-based with one that is (by the sound of it) pushing hard to be all-solo enabled.
Second day in a row you once again try a little too hard.
For what it is that Bioware is trying to do with this game, I don’t see any problem in the inclusion of the companions. As others have said, NPCs will always be inferior to PCs, and design around companions isn’t that difficult to do.
Yes, the game is a themepark, but at least it’s a themepark for the right reason (allegedly). It’s telling a story, a real story. Not just some “misunderstood savage vs the ignorant nobles” or the travesty of whatever WoW is trying to get across. I don’t think that SW:TOR would ever be a game to hold me for years upon years, because once a story is told, the story is over.
No, the big thing that I’m really waiting to hear about this game is, what are you supposed to do once the story is finished. Single player games are done, MMOs continue forever, and that is the base problem that I see with the game. Not the addition of companions, or that it’s a themepark, or that it’s getting overhyped. I’m concerned about what I’m going to get to do with the other players when the rails come to a halt.
agree with Shadowwar which is why Im not going to touch it with a shitty stick, I’ll wait till people reach the ‘finale’ and see what happens.
I’ll agree with syncaine as well however it just doesnt shout out MMO, its going to be far too story orientated and with the addition of pc controlled toons it basically kills my interest unless I hear some amazing reviews and actual player interaction.
Why can’t the Bioware team just take their talents to redo the movies from the Episode I-III, and the end of VI? They did a nice job on their trailer.
May I be so bold… What is wrong with VI?
I find Keen, me, and Syncaine completely agreeing with each other on this issue somewhat scary.
I was going to make fun of you for agreeing with Keen on your blog, but then this post happened.
Which raises the question, can you NGE a SW game before it’s released?
I think it shows that the three of you are similar in terms of your capacity to analyze games and your understanding of design. You differ primarily in your tastes and style of writing.
I don’t think you understand the reasoning while an all-solo MMO is popular. Grouping in PvE sucks.
I’ve done more than my share, as virtually every role in a traditional party. It sucks waiting for key classes, it sucks being a key class and being guilty because leaving a party breaks it up. It sucks when people get mad at you because you leave when the party is bad, and its better to leave to prolong it. It sucks when your gear doesn’t match the standard because you are new, and it sucks when people get mad at you because you are very well geared and think you are looking down on them when you only want to give advice.
It really sucks when forming parties takes 2 hours + due to lack of people.
These are constant in every PvE game as it ages. All-solo MMOs are trying to address this from an opposite tack. I’m not sure that grouping can be fixed in PvE without making it bland and making everyone capable of doing the same thing.
Not sure what your point with the Guild Wars reference is. Guild Wars has made vastly more money for NCSoft than UO has for EA. GW has a massive user base, and while those users aren’t “subscribers” they all bought a box, or two, or four.
“There is a reason GW has no monthly fee”. Yes, it’s because ArenaNet chose to use high cost expansions as a revenue stream instead of subscriptions. It has nothing to do with henchmen. Oh, and by your own admission in counterpoint to Matt, henchmen in GW must be ok since the game requires grouping. You can’t solo in GW without henchmen. The game is tuned to require 4-8 characters.
I have no issue with your actual topic, but try to use examples you’re less ignorant of next time :p
You’re wrong about GW/UO. Expansions for GW (all 4 of em) have not been much higher cost than any of the 8-10 expansions for UO, and for 10+ years now UO has been collecting $10 a month from its user base. Look at the last NCSoft report to see just how important GW is to them in terms of profit %.
I agree with you guys’ right to have a free opinion :)
I have a big response to this, so I made a post at
http://churchofpangoria.blogspot.com/2009/12/solo-player-online-rpg.html
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So… what if I decide its worth buying/subscribing to have a regularly updated, mostly single-player online RPG? ;)
I love my sandbox games, but between Eve and Fallen Earth, that itch is scratched.
True, I’m a bit burned out on “traditional” themepark MMO’s… but I was an SWG player from beta to NGE, and I’m not really looking for a repeat of that experience.
I think what will determine whether SWTOR is worth it for me, will be the story and the mechanics of gameplay. I’ll reserve judgement until I’ve actually played it.
Well of course, if you ARE looking for a SPMMO, SW:TOR is shaping up nicely. My overall point with the post is to say that for me (and players like me), going so far towards SPMMO is a bad thing, for me. The bigger question for BioWare will be if my group is bigger than the SPMMO group, and whether the SPMMO group will continue to play/pay for such a game month after month. Tobold and I doubt it.
Not only is Guild Wars not a “real” MMO, whatever that means (according to keen) and therefore nothing in it is applicable, it’s lack of subscription obviously makes it of such low qulity that nothing in it is applicable :).
My actual opinion on this is in the tobold post. It pretty much sums up as “companions are a good thing, as they make the game more fun, now grouping saystems could use similar improvements.”
damn SynCaine got pwned by Matt.
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This is poorly written and naive. And anyone still using henchmen in Guild Wars is an idiot. Guild Wars has had heroes for over a year now, and they are fantastic.
GW is the best
Oh I agree, it’s not as simple as henchmen = terribad game. But when it’s henchmen+themepark+solo-hero+’story-based’, well to me that reads like the makings of something I’d rather skip.
JPII This was a great man Polak
This is poorly written and naive. And anyone still using henchmen in Guild Wars is an idiot.
I agree with you guys’ right to have a free opinion
The part where you “came away very impressed”? Or that it “adds to the enjoyment of the overall experience”? Or that “it adds more variety to the game”? Or the “pet-like hotbar”?
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And anyone still using henchmen in Guild Wars is an idiot.I love my sandbox games, but between Eve and Fallen Earth, that itch is scratched.
These are constant in every PvE game as it ages. All-solo MMOs are trying to address this from an opposite tack.